Heyoh!
Ok so I don't have the rule book handy and well I like the interaction anyways. :-)
Question:
If a unit not engaged in close combat is behind a freindly unit that is, does that unit get the option of a cover save? (of course assuming that los from firing units passes through the enemy units that are locked in CC)
EDIT:
We've always granted cover saves for units that are more than 50% behind an intervening unit. Now I read that some people are not granting cover saves for Monsterous Creatures unless the intervening unit blocks LoS to more than 50% of the target (example, Hive Tyrant is completely behind a unit of Gaunts, but they're short so they don't block 50%?). How does this work?
As I'm building a Tyranid Army, would hate to think I have to use say "Gene Stealers" to provide cover for my Hive Tyrant, because they are taller than Hormagaunts... or conversely have to petition GW to make Hormagaunt models that are standing upright :-)
I am noticing a disturbing trend. I find most of the rules pretty straightforward... then I go online and start stumbling on interpretations that make me second guess myself.
ReplyDeleteI find it disturbing that 99% of the time the source of these "interpretations", are by someone trying to gain an advantage for his or her army. These interpretations then seem to infect the local groups, spreading like a plague until someone comes to a forum to get it debunked.
Unfortunately, they are typically at the loosing side of more than a few battles before seeking clarification.
My personal favorite was a space wolves player who would lose models off the table edge due to failed Leadership... he then would bring them on the very next turn due to automatically regrouping.. "Hey they're Space Marines"
*sigh*
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ReplyDeleteWe've always granted cover saves for units that are more than 50% behind an intervening unit."~Rob
ReplyDeleteI agree that is what we have been doing. I just want to make sure that applies to friendly units that might be behind other freindly units that are locked in CC.
I guess my problem is the rule book takes the time out to say things like "Close combat is a swirling melee of troops leaping, spinning, hacking and slashing at one another" (pg.35) In other words they are in reality intermingled. And in the 4th edition (might be in 5th) it takes a paragraph or two to talk about how 'the models in reality are not static. When they move about the battle field they are crouching, advancing cautiously, taking advantage of cover, etc. etc...'
But that is just fluff because they are static for every single purpose in the entire game! I am finding that positioning is probably the biggest element to having any success. After all how many times has less than an inch made a difference in what you can and can't do?
I guess I just gotta stop merging the "fluff" descriptions in the rule book and stick with the notion everything is static period.
Also, great point about finding out about Monsterous creatures being behind friendly units for the cover save. Seeing as how like you said gaunts are so small.
It makes me think of what happened to me in Epic. I had some Death Strike missles that did not come with any "official" stands like the speeders do in 40K, etc. I wanted to make something that would be visually cool ya know? Not just place them on the ground. So I made some stands for them so they looked like they were flying through the air. And wouldn't you know it, some player pulled the cheese and used those stands to his advantage for LOS. So I just simply grabbed my Death Strikes and snapped them off the stands and put them on the ground. Now you can't see them moron! I mean geezus man, really?
That happened to you Rob if I remember correctly. You had made some kick ass custom banners for your Gargants and someone used those for LOS targetting. And I think you did the same thing, snapped them off, now you can't see them!
It just sucks that some people would do that because then why would anyone do cool visual stuff if it's going to make your fig a bigger target?!
Well, page 33 third bullet shows your correct on giving cover saes "Firing through units or area terrain" which also apparently if you can see through a combat you can also fire through it.
ReplyDeleteP.51 Shooting section for Monstrous Creatures: MCs cannot go to ground, at least 50% of the body must be covered. as defined on page 16. Also for Area Terrain you must have 50% cover. Just like a vehicle. If something is not clear give them the cover sae with a -1.
The issue is that some MCs are smaller than others thus some are almost impossible to cover 50%. I've also played cheese mongers that claimed "Demon Princes" mounted on Terminator bases that was built short to fit behind a Rhino. Oh, yea, so you could not see them at all. Just wing tips and decorations. Sorry, a MC should look the part and be on the correct base a terminator sized model on tje same sized base is just not kosher.
Custom build your Carnifex like crabs so they have a low profile. *hands you the Kraft award for cheese also if you do*. It would look cool, but some people would think it cheesey, I would only think so if it was on a Terminator base. Stick it on a larger base and your good!
Ok I am reading the rules now and I guess I would like to point this out:
ReplyDeleteI think the 50% we have been using is wrong. That is actually a disadvantage to the model being fired at.
(pg.21)
"When any (to me that's the key word, ANY) part of the target model's body (as defined on page 16)is obscured from the point of view of the firer. The target model is in cover. {NOW FOR THE FLUFF PART I MENTIONED IN MY LAST COMMENT} This is intentionally generous, and it represents the fact that the warrior, unlike the model, will be actively trying to take cover (as well as the smoke, explosions and flying debris that are mercifully absent from out tabletop battlefields).
Definition from page 16:
"Line of sight must be traced from the eyes of the firing model to any part of the body of at least one of the models in the target unit (for 'body' we mean it's head, torso, legs and arms). Sometimes, all that may be visible of a model is a weapon, an antenna, a banner or some other ornament he is wearing or carrying (including its wings and tail, even though they are technically part of its body). In these cases, the model is not visible. These rules are intended to ensure that models don't get penalised for having impressive satndards, blades, guns, majestic wings, etc."
(WOW! I wish they had said that in Epic then I wouldn't have had to snap my custom Death Strike missles stands! lol)
Now onto the next paragraph "Intervening Models"
"If a target is partially hidden (to me that is the key word for this PARTIALLY. That means 1% to 99%)from the firer's view by other models it recieves a 4+ cover save in the same way as if it was behind terrain.
{now the fluff again}
"This doesn't mean that intervening models literally stop the shots, but rather that they obscure the sight of the firers or otherwise spoil their aim. A successful cover save in this case might mean that the firer has not shot at all, missing the feeting moment when the target was in its sights. This is because, in the case of intervening friends, the firer would be afraid of hitting his comrades; while in the case of intervening enemies, the firer is distracted by the more immediate threat."
So if I am to take it word for word without adding anything I guess I just answered my own question. YES, if a model is behind friendly unit or units, even if they are involved in CC, and its PARTIALLY hidden from the firer's view, 4+ cover save.
Of course if I am missing a passage from the rule book that changes this please let me know.
Ok not to keep this going but I am confused now Styx.
ReplyDeleteYou said, "MCs cannot go to ground, at least 50% of the body must be covered. as defined on page 16"
I understand that MC's are defined on pg.51 so that I guess supercededs the definition on pg.21 of "If a target is partially hidden (to me that is the key word for this PARTIALLY. That means 1% to 99%)from the firer's view by other models it recieves a 4+ cover save in the same way as if it was behind terrain"
So to me that straightens out LOS as it pertains to a MC. Have to admit that blows (in terms of Nids) because totally defeats using Gaunts or Gargoyles, etc. as a screen for MCs.
However, I just read all of page 15, 16 and 17 and I did not see any mention of 50%, just the discription of LOS being:
"Line of sight must be traced from the eyes of the firing model to any part of the body of at least one of the models in the target unit (for 'body' we mean it's head, torso, legs and arms). Sometimes, all that may be visible of a model is a weapon, an antenna, a banner or some other ornament he is wearing or carrying (including its wings and tail, even though they are technically part of its body). In these cases, the model is not visible. These rules are intended to ensure that models don't get penalised for having impressive satndards, blades, guns, majestic wings, etc."
So to sum up my questions (please let me know if I am wrong)
1) Units that are behind friendly units even if those friendly units are in CC will get a 4+ cover save as long as the unit in question is partially hidden.
2)The partially hidden does not apply to MC's. It's has to be 50% hidden or no cover at all.
1) YouR correct, if you can see it, you Can shoot, the target unit gets a cover save if there is another unit or area terrain in the way,
ReplyDelete2) Treat MCs like Vehicles, 50% is correct. Now as a nid player this may make you roll your eyes a little by saying that sucks. Things to keep in mind, is some stuff can deep strike, pop in, take a round of beating, then charge. Once your locked up in combat, get into cover using your opponents stuff and also using things like Catalyst for the FNP and boosting armor saves are very viable options.
Also keep in mind when building scenery to make some hills that MCs could use, rock formations, buildings, etc....
Styx, thanks brother that clears up alot ahead of time. I don't think it's affected our games, but hey we're still considering them practice games hehe.
ReplyDeleteSweetness that we are about 99% on the rules, if you could see how we were playing about 2 months ago you would've died laughing :-)
Well, everyone has to start somewhere. I know back when I started I fumbled with the rules and hell after being through all these editions since 2nd fuddles my old fart brain.
ReplyDeleteOne time when I worked for GW, some kids came in, couldn't be more than 10 or 11 at best, oh the pain of watching that game and trying to help them learn the rules. They insisted they did things the right way, they was doing shooting and CC at the same time, other fun crazy junk like that, moving models further than they should, basicly anything-goes-hammer.
That's funny! Thankfully we've never been as bad as 10 year olds :-)
ReplyDeleteThou some of our early games were pretty far out!